Underworld Journeys: The Realms of Copper Silver Gold

Stories of the underworld and underworld experiences are an important piece of our mythic inheritance and yet our understanding of the variety and nuances may be limited.

What distinguishes the “underworld” from the upper world, and from other realms and dimensions of experience that also deviate from the everyday? What takes place in the underworld, and why are so many of us (all of us?) compelled to go there at one time or another?

If you look at some of the better-known myths today, Inanna and Persephone, for example, and the Christian image of Hell, you might conclude that the underworld is a place of wrath, violent violation, entrapment, and/or grisly death. And, you wouldn’t be wrong. But there’s more.

Transcript of Underworld Journeys: The Realms of Copper Silver Gold

Hello and welcome to Myth Matters an exploration at the intersection of mythology, creativity and consciousness. I’m your host Dr. Catherine Svehla. Wherever you may be in this wide beautiful crazy world of ours, I’m glad that you decided to join me here today.

October already. A time of seasonal changes, spring or fall, depending on your hemisphere. A time of collective transition when many earthly beings change their priorities and behavior, even change their forms. This is a liminal time, so today I’d like to talk a bit about the underworld,  a metaphor for liminal space that looms large in the collective imagination.

The “underworld” is a particular image of the Otherworld. We have other images and ideas of the Otherworld. Humans have described experiences of different states of consciousness, from sleep and dream to visionary states induced by meditation, to trance states, shamanic journeys, and psychedelic voyages as journeys into other realms. Into some Otherworld, known as  a land of the ancestors, spirits, or fairies, for example. Heaven. Cosmic consciousness. Etc.

The “Otherworld” as “underworld” has some distinguishing characteristics that set it apart from the other realms. So, I have a story for you today but let’s take a few moments to reflect on this notion of “the underworld.” What is it? 

Well, “under.” It’s below. It’s a realm that we imagine to be below us, and in locating it below this world, we’re suggesting several things. First, the underworld is a place where we can’t live, or where life exists in a different form than it does in the above realm, and the underworld then, is a place that’s largely unknown or hidden to us. The final thing is that if the underworld is beneath us, then it has a certain consistency, or is contiguous in some way with our world.

The way that this these ideas have translated in many myths is that the underworld is a place of negation. It’s a place where things take an opposite form or express an opposite value from the above world. Also, the underworld is commonly seen as a place of hidden wealth, hidden truth, hidden wisdom. Whatever it is that’s going on down there, it’s going on below the surface. 

Now, a lot of our ideas about the underworld in the dominant culture have been colored by Christian myths and the notion of hell and eternal punishment, which carries with it the idea that we could avoid going to the underworld if we’re just good enough or believe in the right God. 

Another important source of influence is the myths of the ancient Greeks. Some of the better-known myths include the myth of Demeter and Persephone, which gave rise to mystery cults like Eleusis, and the Odyssey is another important touchstone. And there are other stories of people coming and going, like Orpheus and the 12 labors of Heracles, and these stories suggest that we might have a reason or a need to go to the underworld, and it’s very dangerous to go there. You may or may not get out. And when you are there, you learn something that changes you. 

Another influence that has grown in the last decade or so is the story of the Sumerian goddess of Inanna, who goes to the underworld to visit her sister, and is killed by her sister, and hangs on a hook for three days before she comes back up. Here we have a rather graphic image of the kind of ego death that leads to transformation in the underworld. 

And one other important contemporary idea that I want to put out there is the Jungian concept of the underworld. Here, the underworld is often equated with the unconscious. It is the unknown part of the psyche. It’s big. It’s populated with all sorts of beings and energies, and again, it’s often dangerous, especially from the ego perspective. 

All of these ideas are useful. I do think we’ve tended to emphasize the death aspect of it, and I would like to suggest that the nature of the journey to the underworld reflects different psychological needs or projects. Odysseus doesn’t “die” in the underworld but he is changed by what he learns there, and what he learns there sets the course for the rest of his journey home. There are lots of stories that work with this idea that aren’t quite so grim as Inanna’s, and I think these stories are worth engaging with. 

Sticking with the Jungian for a moment, Jung had a concept I think is very useful. He called it “enantiodromia” which he borrowed from the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, and this means “running to the opposite.” Running to the opposite. This is a way of thinking about the underworld journey and I think it’s useful because it suggests that, in combination with these other ideas, the underworld is always present as a possibility. That this need for reversal, for contact with the opposite or transformation into the opposite, is a necessity. That it has a natural psychospiritual purpose. 

So, I’d like to suggest to you that a journey to the underworld is an encounter with a hidden truth, and that revelation is the catalyst for transformation. What you discover and learn in the underworld, this is the source of the profound change that it brings.

Now, I want to tell you a Russian fairy tale called “The Realms of Copper, Silver, and Gold.” I invite you to relax and listen to the story, and let yourself note what feels particularly meaningful or puzzling to you. These are always useful clues to your position in the story, and I also like you to hold in mind the notion that this is also a story about an underworld journey. I will talk more about how I see the underworld elements in it after I tell it,

“The Realms of Copper, Silver, and Gold”

Once upon a time there was an old man and his old wife, and they had three sons. One was called Yegorushko-the-Flyer, the second was called Misha-the-Bowlegged, and the third was called Iváshko-the-Dreamer. When the sons came of age, their parents sent each of them out  in search of a wife.

The first son searched high and low but he found no girl to be his bride.  However, when he was walking home, he encountered a three-headed dragon. 

“What is your errand, bold fellow?” asked the dragon. Yegorushko told his story. He was looking for a wife. He hadn’t been able to find one.”Come with me,” said the dragon, “and I’ll show you where you might find one.” The young man decided to follow the dragon. After several days and nights, they came to a great stone. “Move the stone,” said the dragon, “and you shall find whatsoever you deserve.”

Yegorushko tried with all his might to shift the stone but it was beyond his strength. “So be it,” said the dragon. “You deserve no bride.” 

The son returned home and related his adventure to his father and mother. The old folk were puzzled, but made up their minds to send forth the second son, Misha-the-Bowlegged. The same straight fate befell him too. He could not move the stone either. Well, when he went home and told the parents this, they decided. Well, there’s no point in sending Iváshko-the-dreamer because he will certainly come back empty-handed. 

But Iváshko begged so hard that his parents eventually let him try his luck. When he encountered the three-headed dragon, he received the same question: “What is your errand bold fellow?”

“My brothers sought a bride and could not find one,” Iváshko replied.” Now it is my turn. Will you help me?”

“If that be your wish,” said the dragon. “I shall show you the place and you may seek your fortune. But I warn you: you will receive no more than you deserve.” When they reached the great stone, Iváshko seized it and rolled it aside easily, revealing a hole with a rope hanging down. 

“Take hold of the rope” ordered the dragon, “and I shall lower you into the hole. You will come to three kingdoms, one of copper, one of silver, and one of gold. In them you will find a maiden, each more lovely than the first. From those maidens, you must choose your bride.” 

Iváshko climbed down lower and lower until he was in the bowels of the Earth. At the bottom a path opened up, and in the distance he saw a kingdom of copper glinting, fiery red under the underworld sun. Journeying through that kingdom, he came to a palace. There at the copper gates stood a maiden, more beautiful than words could relate or tales could unfold. She greeted him sweetly: “Welcome, long-awaited guest. Come into the palace and tell me where you come from and whither you travel.”

 “Oh, lovely maiden,” Iváshko said. “You ask me questions without offering me food and drink. That is no way to treat a Russian traveler.” At that, the beautiful maid laid a table with all kinds of sweet meats and wines. Iváshko ate and drank his fill and then told her of his quest for a bride. “If it pleases you,” he said, “I would dearly take you for my bride.”

The maid shook her head sadly. “Journey farther until you come to the kingdom of silver. There, you will find a maiden more beautiful than me,” she said. Iváshko bowed, thanked her for her hospitality, and took his leave. He journeyed farther down into the earth until he came to a kingdom of silver glittering under the underworld sun. As he approached the silver palace, he saw a girl waiting by the gate who was even more lovely than the first. 

“Greetings passing stranger,” she said kindly. “Come into the palace and tell me your story. Whose son are you and where do you come from and where are you going?” “Oh fair maiden,” said Iváshko, “you ask me questions before offering me food and drink. That is no way to greet a Russian wayfarer.” So, the maid of the silver kingdom at once set a table and brought him all manner of tasty morsels and mead, and regaled him most royally. When he had ate and drunk his fill, he told her of his errand. Would she be his bride? 

The girl shook her head. “Journey farther until you come to the kingdom of gold. There you will find a maiden even lovelier than myself,” she said. Iváshko thanked the girl and continued on his way down into the depths of the Earth. He went down and down and down and down. When he reached the kingdom of gold, he met a maiden at the palace gate, who was indeed, the loveliest girl he had ever seen. Giving thanks to God, he bowed low before the girl and told her of his mission. 

She laid a table with all sorts of food and drink, even better than he had tasted before. Iváshko-the-Dreamer enjoyed his meal, and when it was over, he asked: “If it pleases you fair maiden, will you be my bride?” To his joy, the maid of the golden kingdom consented, and they set off together for his home in the upper world, in Russia. On the way, they called in at the silver and copper kingdoms to fetch the other two lovely maidens. 

When they reached the bottom of the hole, they found a rope hanging there but the dragon was gone. Iváshko looked up and in his place, he saw that his brothers stood waiting. So, first Iváshko tied the copper maiden to the rope. He gave it a tug and the brothers hauled her up. Then he tied the silver maiden to the rope, and the brothers hauled her up. Then he tied the golden maiden to the rope, and the brother hauled her up. 

Now he finally tied himself to the rope, gave it a tug, and the brothers began to pull him up. But part way up, they looked down, and they saw that this time it was Iváshko tied to the rope. And they thought about the three beautiful maidens. Would Iváshko share them or keep them? Would he lord it over them? Why should they pull the dreamer up after all? Why not keep the three maidens for themselves?

So, they cut the rope, and Iváshko fell with a bump at the bottom of the hole. Of course, he wept tears of anger and frustration and grief. There was nothing for it, however, but to journey back along the path into the Earth, back down to the underworld. 

He had not gone far when he came upon a little man, no bigger than his finger yet with a beard as long as his leg. He was sitting on top of a tree stump humming merrily. Iváshko told the little old man of his misfortune. “Journey on until you come to a hut,” the little old man said. “In the hut lives a fierce giant who will either eat you or advise you further.”

Iváshko walked on until he came to the hut. He went in and begged the giant not to kill him, but to tell him how he might return home. Luckily, the giant was quite full, having just eaten nine oxen and nine sheep. So, he snorted “Go beyond the 30 lakes until you reach a little hut on a hen’s foot. There you will find a witch. She has an eagle bird that will carry you back home.”

Iváshko continued his journey. He crossed the first lake, and the second one, and the third, and the fourth, and finally he’d crossed all 30 lakes, and he came to the hut on a hen’s foot. He knocked on the door, and when the witch opened it, he told her that he’d been sent by the giant to ask for her permission to have the mighty eagle bird carry him back home. 

“Go into my garden where you will see a guard,” said the witch. “He stands before some doors. Take his keys and open seven doors. When you come to the last one, enter quietly. The eagle will shake his wings. If you do not scare him, you may sit astride his back and fly away. But take some meat with you so that you can feed him whenever he wants to look around.”

Iváshko did exactly as the witch had told him. He went out to the guard. He retrieved the seven keys and he opened each of the seven doors. And when he got into the room with the eagle bird, he very quietly and gently mounted the eagle’s back. Immediately, the bird flew away.

Presently the eagle began to look around and Iváshko at once broke off a piece of meat and fed him. This continued until the meat was gone, and yet they were still far from Russia and the upperworld. When the eagle next looked around and was fed no meat, he tore a piece from a Iváshko’s leg, swallowed it, and it once soared up through the hole into Russia. 

As Iváshko dismounted, the eagle spat out the lump of meat and bade him place it back on his leg. No sooner had he done so then the leg grew whole as if the wound had never been. Iváshko-the-dreamer returned home and took the golden maiden from his brothers. Together they lived in health and happiness. And they live on still in a village somewhere somewhere in the upper world, perhaps the Russian steppe, and I know this because just the other day I met him. We drank beer together, and yet I barely got my chin wet.

So, let’s tease out a few of the underworld elements in this story. The first and obvious one is he goes down. He is in an underworld. He is below this world. And another common underworld motif is the rope. Ropes and threads going down, going down literally, like in this story, or weaving through a labyrinth or a cave or some other mysterious realm where you don’t have any idea what’s ahead of you, is an underworld motif.

He meets a three-headed dragon, which reminds me of the Greek three-headed dog, Cerberus. This is also a common underworld motif. There is a threshold guardian, one who says “if you keep going, you’re going to get what you deserve. Watch out. Think again. Are you sure?”  And then we note that there’s all kinds of riches and value and sustenance in the underworld. That’s part of the irony of this other realm. There’s life there, and in this case, there’s precious metals and other forms of wealth, which is something that occurs in other stories about this kind of journey. 

But perhaps the most important part is what’s lost. What’s lost, what’s the sacrifice, what’s the revelation? What is it that causes a change? What’s the nature of that? There are a few different ways this happens or things we can think about. One is a certain loss of innocence and the pain of betrayal by his other two brothers, right? 

And I think it’s interesting that there’s that loss of innocence, but also remember that this is Iváshko-the-dreamer, the one who supposedly wasn’t able to do anything because he wasn’t a competent actor, and throughout, but especially in the second part of this story, we see the test and the revelation of his ability to act. Then there’s everything that he realizes. This discovery, the revelation of the maidens, or the retrieval of what is embodied in the “feminine”,  in that metaphor. The eagle bird eats his leg (dismemberment) but then there’s restoration, so we have this sense of purposeful sacrifice. 

And in the end, this presumably callow young man who’s been dismissed as someone who can’t really do anything, who can’t find what he needs — his bride, that missing element that would bring him wholeness or balance or some kind of new harmony—he can’t find that in the upper world, so he has to go to the underworld where his nature is transformed, where he comes into contact with something that he didn’t previously know. There is a loss, and in that sense there is a death of a previous self, and yet it doesn’t look quite like the hook, right? 

That’s one of my points here. I think that if we have a broader perspective of the underworld, if we think about it, not as a place where death doesn’t happen, but rather reframe that death and loss experience as an experience of reversal, of running opposite, and if we locate the transformative power of these experiences in the discovery and integration of a previously hidden truth, we might be better equipped to recognize and make these journeys, and integrate what they are able to offer us.

I want to share a few more thoughts about the value in having this broader perspective, but first I want to pause here to tell you just a little bit about a few offerings that might interest you. 

First of all, since we’re talking about the underworld, my self-guided exploration of the Sumerian myth of the goddess Inanna is currently available. This is an interesting tool to help you step into that story about the significance of the transformation process, and I’ll post a link to details about that in with this transcript.

Then another story exploration. This one is a guided exploration that takes place October 10 to the 24th. It’s called “Step into the Fairy Glen” and we will work with one of my absolute favorite stories about liminal spaces and what can take place in Other worlds. This is also online. You receive daily prompts, and there is some guidance. That’s why it is from the 10th to the 24th, from new moon to full moon. But you use those prompts for a few minutes every day at a time that suits you, so you don’t have to appear online at any particular time. This story is really good for catalyzing insights and also for learning something about how I work with stories, which is an approach that you can use in lots of ways or bring to other stories that call to you. I will also post a link to that offering with this transcript.

And finally, on a somewhat different note, the next Stewarding the Emergent conversation is October 28. These are community conversations that I facilitate with my colleagues Rohini Walker and Jennessee Rosenberg. They’re free. We explore a particular question, and for this conversation on the 28th, we will be talking about the question: If the language we use shapes our experience and world, how can we use our ability to communicate to steward the emerging possibilities of this time. 

This is a conversation. This isn’t coming to get teachings from the three of us. This is an opportunity to share your thoughts and opinions about that question in a respectful community space. It’s free, but you need to register to receive the Zoom link, so I will also include that link with this transcript. 

Details for all of these offerings can also be found at my website mythicmojo.com. 

Now I want to give a big welcome to new email subscribers: Claire, Marie, Yahbataza, Darla, Carolina, Muriel, Ana, Nico, Ingrid, Diouma, John, Majo, Shane, Rachel, Aviad, Sallie, Antonia, and Kathleen. Welcome to Myth Matters! If you’re new to Myth Matters, I hope you will go over to the Mythic Mojo website to learn more about me and investigate the offerings that I’ve mentioned. And while you’re there, you can also join the email list if you would like to receive links to new Myth Matters episodes in your inbox.

A big thank you to Peter, who became a patron on Patreon this month. Thank you, Peter! The financial and community support I receive from my Patreon patrons and supporters on Bandcamp is so important to me and Myth Matters. There are a variety of ways that you can support the podcast on Patreon, so I hope you will check it out. And if making a contribution of some dollars is not in the cards for you right now, well, I appreciate your support in any form. Tell other friends, family members about the podcast, and thank you for being part of Myth Matters.

Now I said that I think that there are more creative possibilities in our underworld journeys if we recognize them as being more than times of literal difficulty and loss, and also about more than the death with a capital D that we see in myths like Inanna. Yes, something dies. That’s the nature of transformation, but the impact of coming into meaningful contact with a previously hidden truth or aspect of self can show up in a variety of forms. The underworld really is a sensibility, and we can shift our orientation towards it. 

I think this is important because making that move can help us accept and heal the traumatic experiences that can be part of an underworld journey without contributing to a cult of suffering that unconsciously aligns our self-worth, our strength, and the value of our lives with the degree of hardship we’ve endured. We can honor the trials that we go through, and respect our ability to survive and heal, while cultivating our creativity, our sense of beauty, and our capacity for joy and wonder. 

Understanding the underworld as a sensibility, an orientation, can open creative possibilities. Many of us are in the underworld right now, and we could argue that the underworld is a collective experience right now. So how do we work with the imperative this contains? The imperative for acceptance of deep or deeper truths, for engagement with the shadow, for the establishment of a new equilibrium of values in a culture or a life or a personality that is too rigid or narrow or single-minded? How can we engage with the possibilities in underworld experience as a “running towards the opposite,” a reversal or a negation that has a psychospiritual necessity and value?

An underworld experience is a revelation, a restoration that leads to a new depth and harmony. Can this broader perspective help us be more effective transformers? What do you think? I’ll talk more about this in the coming weeks.

If we have a better understanding of our need for myth, and all that our old stories offer, we can live more satisfying lives. We can inhabit a better story and create a more beautiful, just, and life-centered, life-embracing world.  

And that’s it for me, Catherine Svehla and Myth Matters. Take good care of yourself and until next time, keep the mystery in your life alive.